Forgiveness? Ask, and it shall be given you - Luke 11:9
Quick question for Christians: what will you say to the mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik when you meeting him in heaven? What conversation are you going to make with the millions of other murderers, thieves, rapists and child molesters who are going to be spending eternity with you?
Anders Behring Breivik is a Christian; he believes in Jesus Christ, he believes Jesus Christ is his personal ‘Lord and Saviour’. I can assure you he asks for forgiveness for all the bad things he’s done and I can assure you he’s sincere. Misguided, mad, crazy, but completely sincere.
And as I predicted in my previous post, I have just seen a Christian I know use the “he’s not a True Christian™” apology. So here’s another question: how do Christians, since they just have again, determine what a True Christian™ actually is? How do you decide? By what measure?
Isn’t it time for a rethink of those evidence-less beliefs of yours?
Many madmen call themselves Christians just like many demagogues call themselves democrats a.s.o. This does not mean they really are what they pretend to be. However, it is very simple to decide who a true Christian is: a follower of Christ, someone who does his/her best and prays (as you say, as much as he/she can) to be able to do what his/her Lord does. Christ did not use to kill children, so someone who kills children by definition cannot be a Christian – no matter what he or other atheists pretend.
Best,
Klara
Thank you for your comment…
Be like Jesus? OK, Matthew 10:34-36:
I have a feeling that ‘sword’ could be interchanged with ‘AK47′ don’t you? You see, thankfully the Christian Bible can, literally, be used to justify anything, including the murder of children.
Just because it’s not nice, doesn’t make it not Christian. I take it you’ve read the whole Bible? Numbers 31:17-18:
So… Jesus comes with a sword… the Bible more than once commands the murder of children… see what I’m getting at? It’s your manual after all.
Anyway death and destruction aside, if your only measure of being a Christian is to:
then you and every western Christian has a bit of a problem. And I am able to include you without knowing you because you were able to comment on this blog which implies you have vastly more wealth than your average poor third world inhabitant.
Why have you not sold all your possessions and given the money to the poor? This is, after all, what Jesus said in Matthew 19:21:
Why does virtually every Christian in the world strive for wealth when Jesus said Matthew 19:23-24:
You see, it’s easy to say a couple of cute sounding things like ‘be like Jesus’ and ‘pray a lot’ but the words are meaningless especially since you’ve edited out the shitty parts and memorised the cuddly bits.
Be like Jesus? I know Christians who drink and beat their wives but by every measure, they are Christians and are going to heaven.
Is Anders Behring Breivik not going to heaven? Because, if he is, clearly he must be a Christian and if he isn’t, why not? By what measure is he not a Christian?
Don’t you think it’s time you reconsidered these things that you believe without evidence?
It would be much nicer to discuss these questions without anger limiting ourselves to the facts and reasoning without ad hominem argumentations. I am also shocked by the death of these people, but no way will I think that the killer was a Christian, because it does not make sense… How many people do you know of who were killed by Christ? In many more other places of the NT Christ speaks about love and peace. Of course, you won’t cite these. The apostles, his first followers, were beaten up by the authorities, but they never fought against anyone in any other way, only with the word of God. ‘Sword’ here is not a physical object, but the word of Lord (the gospel), which indeed turns family members, friends, workmates etc. against one another. But it is not because Christians (true Christians, of course, however ridiculous this might seem to you) want war with the others, but because what they say (e.g. to repent, to forgive, to love your enemy etc.) is inacceptable for those who think they are okay the way they are.
I am a Christian, but I have never strived for wealth. Nor have the Christians around me. I know there is a so-called “health and wealth Christianity”, but I think they are mistaken (this is because they apply spiritual values to earthly matters, just as you are doing with the ‘sword’).
‘Anders Behring Breivik not going to heaven? Because, if he is, clearly he must be a Christian and if he isn’t, why not? By what measure is he not a Christian?’
I have answered this question of yours already? Why do you keep asking?
As for the killer guy, It is only God’s competence to decide who goes to heaven and who to hell. We do not have a clear vision, we do not tknow the whole truth (and this should give us modesty when speaking about other people’s life). I trust his love and justice, therefore I think everything will come out the best.
Belief in the Christian sense is always without evidence in the first place. Otherwise it should be ‘vision’. First you believe, then you see. For sure! But this is hard to explain to non-believers.
“Be like Jesus? I know Christians who drink and beat their wives but by every measure, they are Christians and are going to heaven.”
Deciding who is going to heaven is not in our competence. Everyone should stand before God when he dies. And be sure that everyone will get a right judgment, because God does not make mistakes.
Best,
Klara
Ad hominem? LOL, nice try.
None of the Bible makes sense. No Adam and Eve, no Noah’s flood, no living in a whale, no child murdering bears. A God needing to have himself killed in a universe he created with rules he designed by people he invented doesn’t make sense. Your religion doesn’t make sense and yet you use ‘not making sense’ as an excuse?
You know this how? It’s laughable really. The only knowledge you have of this comes from the Bible, written at least a hundred years after Jesus Christ was alleged to be alive from second hand stories by four authors who contradict each other repeatedly. And then the book was put together by a group of men who cherry picked texts and went on to build the wealthiest organisation in the world? And yet you state what you read in it as if were fact. It is not.
Mistaken? Because YOU think they are? 32,000 different denominations of Christianity and each of you think you’re the ones that are right. Don’t you find that strange? You get the instructions from the same text book, interpret it 32,000 ways and YOU happen to be right?
I keep asking because of your vague vacuous answer. And ‘because I say so’ isn’t an answer. Presumably you think it is, but then, that is my primary problem with your religion; it disapproves of critical thinking.
He believes in Jesus Christ who is is personal Lord and Saviour. He asks for forgiveness for his sins. Are there some other requirements to go to heaven that I am not aware of? Perhaps you can provide me with the relevant Bible passages.
You don’t ‘first believe’ in any other area of your life and yet you take without a single shred of evidence Christianity. It’s not hard to to explain, it’s impossible to explain to somebody who looks at you espousing belief without evidence and yet doesn’t believe in 2999 other gods. Why don’t you?
Know what by far the best predictor of a person’s religion is? Where they are born. You are Christian because those around you are Christian. If that were not the case, why did Christianity not spontaneously occur anywhere else on earth?
Spend some time and look at your own religion like you look at other religions and you will find it is exactly the same. It’s a figment of your imagination.
Oh, except for that one time when he had to reset his perfect creation by drowning everybody and everything on earth, including little babies, children, woman, men, lambs, baby chimpanzees, kittens, puppies…
Cop out.
For us to discuss anything you’re going to have to come up with some evidence for what you believe. If you want to point to the Bible as evidence you’re going to have to a) explain why there are hundreds of contradictions and impossibilities in it and b) you’re going to have to prove that your God exists where none of the other 3000 odd gods invented by humanity does.
The Bible gets it’s authority from your God and so if you can’t prove your God exists, the Bible has no authority.
Might I make a prediction? You’re not going to come up with any evidence.
Jesus causes autism.
Have you ever heard of hypotheses in science?
b) There is plenty of evidence in the universe for the existence of God (the very fact that it works like a Swiss watch despite what humans are doing to it), but for those who do not want to see, this, of course, is not enough. But coming closer to us, I know there is God, because He has saved me from hell, he has made me capable of forgiving my enemies’ faults, He makes me sure that I’m on the right way when I am, and He warns me when I’m not etc. I’m talking to Him and He replies me. I don’t need evidence from anyone. But for those who really NEED evidence (and do not only want to prove their own truth), the fact that I’m not getting furious at your remarks and I don’t ridicule your ideas, in itself proves the existence of God. I could not do this otherwise.
a) As for the ‘impossibilities’ in the Bible: if you accept the existence of an almighty God and a transcendental world, there are no impossibilities. Every fact in the Bible should be discussed in this context. Of course, for this you’ll have to give up your own ‘almightiness’. Seemingly, there are contradictions, which again must be decoded in the context: who said that, when, where, to whom etc. This again requires modesty and the admittance of the fact that we people only have a partial knowledge of the complete truth. God’s Spirit helps you (I mean those who really want to know) understand the seemingly controversial issues.
Anyway, I thought you really wanted to carry on a discussion, but now I see that you only want to reiterate what you are convinced about. But isn’t it sad to make a blog to prove how stupid some people are and that you are better than them? Does this make sense?
Best,
Klara
No there isn’t. Your argument from design is a fail. Provide evidence.
No there isn’t. Your argument from personal revelation is a fail. Provide evidence.
No you don’t and He doesn’t. Provide evidence.
Actually I’ll make it easy: if he did, he’d be able to give you useful information. Ask for the proof for the Goldbach Conjecture, paste it here when He gives it to you.
But you won’t. Because you’re talking to yourself.
You couldn’t exercise a bit of self control without divine help? You don ‘t find that a bit strange?
Oh really?
MAT 5:1,2: “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying….”
LUK 6:17,20: “And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people…came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said…”
Both are true? Come on.
MAT 27:46,50: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?” that is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” …Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”
LUK 23:46: “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, “Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
JOH 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished:” and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”
All three are true? Are you kidding?
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?
I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;
Both are true? LMAO.
There are hundreds of contraindications, just, like, those.
So what you’re trying to say is that I should stop calling your bullshit what it is, bullshit and be a little more amenable to your vacuous statements. It doesn’t work like that. You provide evidence for your statements.
Yea. Sure. Of course. The truth, facts and evidence doesn’t help you, God’s spirit does.
I’ll discuss anything but you’re going to have to come up with some, you know, actual evidence for your claims. Evidence. Get some.
Some atheists are friendly. Other atheists think you should call a spade a spade. What you believe doesn’t make sense, isn’t logical, isn’t good for anybody and crucially, isn’t true.
Ignorance perceives informedness as arrogance.
You know after all these it’s funny to read you writing on tolerance and forgiveness…
Anyway, I’ll quit. Tolerance and forgiveness be with you.
Best,
Klara
Have a wonderful day.
If there is no hell or heaven what sense does your question make?
If there is no GOD, how can he be so cruel?
That, is the point.
No loving God could be so cruel, ergo, there is no loving God.
That was a spanking and a half. Well done.
I find it particularly irritating when people pull the “ad hominem” card and yet don’t know what it means. It happens time and again.
but no way will I think that the killer was a Christian, because it does not make sense… How many people do you know of who were killed by Christ?
Can a Christian punch someone in the face?
Think about it.
Can a Christian punch someone in the face really, really hard?
Or do Christians never punch people in the face…because it “doesn’t make sense” somehow? Or maybe they were a Christian just before they broke their wife’s nose but then they are suddenly not at the precise moment of impact?
That would be convenient. If you do something wrong while a Christian, you are automatically ejected from the club. Sound good to you?
Yet that would mean that no Christian would ever commit an act of violence or do something nasty or shameful…or sinful.
Not ever.
No Christian could ever be a thief or a rapist or a pedophile or a tax cheat or a murderer or a bully or any number of a thousand different offences/sins either horrific or petty.
No Christian could ever really be guilty of anything nasty ’cause after all Jesus was never guilty of anything nasty or unpleasant or icky.
Convenient.
(Though there wouldn’t be enough “Real Christians” to fill a London bus on the entire planet.)
But what if said Christian who busted his wife’s face open then suddenly felt bad and got down on his knees and wailed and wept and begged for forgiveness from deep within his heart and soul?
Is he now back in the Club…in your eyes? Is he now a “Real” Christian half a second after he get’s down on his knees…in your opinion as a card-carrying “Real Christian”?
(Of course, you can’t actually look inside his heart and soul so that makes things a tad difficult. Oops.)
Yet what of tomorrow?
The very next day perhaps he takes a broken beer bottle to his wife’s face and slashes her once-pretty visage to ribbons.
Is he now no longer a “Real Christian”? Is he now again ejected from the club?
Either he is or he is not. God’s not picking up the phone at the moment so the call is all Klara’s. (Exactly like Klara decided the call was hers to judge a mass murderer was not a Christian.)
Yet again he grovels before his wife and begs forgiveness. He wears sackcloth and ashes for a year. He sells his house and car and donates all the money to charity.
Every day for a year he prays to his god from deep, deep, DEEP in his heart for forgiveness and a shot at getting into heaven.
Is he now back in your club according to you?
(Never mind about heaven. Is he back in your club?)
Or does it take 10 years of begging and weeping and meekness and mildness?
Or 20?
Or 50?
Or maybe he was off the hook and the slate wiped clean and back to being a “Real Christian” the very microsecond he started to crave forgiveness?
What about if he takes a whip to his wife? Jesus used a whip, didn’t he?
Anybody can go “Tut tut” at a mass murderer. That’s easy. Nobody at all likes them. Nobody want to hang out with them.
Don’t need a moldy book or a priest to tell you that.
Yet when you take it upon yourself to deny membership to someone for “doing something that Jesus wouldn’t do” , you (not some magic invisible sky daddy) are making a judgement and setting up a rule.
Such a rule must be…consistent. Or it is just arbitrary handwaving.
Christ did not use to kill children, so someone who kills children by definition cannot be a Christian
So there’s your rule. There’s your theological pronouncement on how to tell a “Real Christian”.
Work with it.
Is it a consistent rule or does it switch on and off by magic in some murky, arbitrary, oddball manner? Maybe there’s a sliding scale or something? Maybe there’s “SINS” but then there’s “sins” and then there’s harmless “well-boys-will-be-boys-stuff-and-beside’s-the-stupid-cow-showed-disrespect”.
Deciding who is going to heaven is not in our competence.
Yeah but can YOU decide who’s a member of YOUR club based upon the rule YOU made up…or does it ONLY apply to the easy stuff like mass murderers?
Excellent comment, excellent points.
I think I might say this too often: nobody has every accused the religious of being overly logical and rational.
It’s possibly the thing about religion I find the most trying: that they are able to think things and hold opinions without actually ever thinking through the consequences and implications of what they believe. That they are able to ignore so many negative implications purely because it makes them uncomfortable.
Why do they not want to know? Why are they happy not knowing? How do they ignore so many terrible things?